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Imago Gei is a play on the term Imago Dei, which means made in the Image of God. Imago Gay is a gay podcast production affirming that we are all deserving of dignity. Gay church anyone? Spectrum Magazine, SDA Kinship along with Kendra Arsenault M.Div. have come together to bring you the latest on queer theology and a minority perspective on faith.
Imago Gay is the affirmation of our humanity and shared value in the eyes of God. This dignity and affirmation of human value, which is the birthright of every living and breathing human being is one that is often forgotten when affirming the dignity of LGBTQ lives. LGBTQ youth are four times as likely to commit suicide. LGBTQ youth also make up 40% of the homeless youth in America. Unfortunately, much of their suicidality and housing insecurity is caused by bad theology. Whether it’s parents who kick their children out of the home for coming out, or the depression that comes with believing that being queer means there is no future possibility of love, family and happiness and you’ve once dreamed. Bad theology is one that does not treat the other as Imago Dei, made in the image of God. So as a statement both to ourselves and to others, Imago Gei is a podcast that affirms that we are all made in the image of God, even the gays….
welcome back to Imago Gay. Happy Valentine's Day everyone. Today is our Valentine's Day special, , where we're gonna talk a little bit about romance love, and it's the season two premiere.
Imago Gay is back, Imago Gay is back season two. We're gonna talk a little more relational , this season and partly because, , we've had a significant event. Occur. . . It just happened. It just happened. . And that is, we we're engaged. We're engaged.
If you haven't seen, you can check out our Instagram Yes. Photos and our love story. , oh, to clarify to each other. Yes. . I, I'm so happy that like when the Instagram photos came out, it has confirmed some people's suspicion. They're like, you guys had really good chemistry. I wasn't sure. Roxanne laughs had all your jokes.
That's how we know there's something going on, . , this relationship has been such a good place of learning and coming into acceptance. , it's been safe and just very transformative and I've. , I, I know that wounds happen in the context of relationship and so does healing, and there's been a lot of healing moments in this relationship.
So it's exciting to be a little bit more open about it and just to walk that journey and, and see why it's so connected to Yeah, our real life experiences, what we talk about. And it's so, it's so important too, cuz like, when I think about when we first began our relationship, there was so much that, , we wanted to keep under wraps just because we weren't sure how the community would greet us.
And I think in that period of like incubation, , I, I've, I learned so much about. , affirming churches, , recognize like there's so much value to, , people who are joining themselves in relationship and the potential for growth and like the potential to have a family and like the things that we need to navigate the most in the, in life is how do we love one another? Yeah. And in relationship, we really find out how to do that best.
Yeah. Nothing like proximity to really challenge your tolerance and, and I, and I mean that in a, in a special way. Like yeah. When we go unchallenged and when we don't have to consider somebody else in our decisions and , there's a piece of loneliness when you're single, but then, , you have a lot of autonomy, a lot of agency.
You get to be really selfish in your decisions. And I thought I was, so, my estimation of my patients and love were like, so, more than what they actually are , because those are all I, these are theories that I have about myself. And when you deal with people, like in limited interactions, like, I'm gonna go to class for an hour.
Look at . What a well-behaved human being. I can be for one hour. . , but , being in a relationship, you're with a person Yeah. All the time. And they get to see you when you're happy, when you're sad, when life is affecting you, when you're not your best. Mm-hmm. . And that is a relationship you're supposed to be able to be kind of more candid with.
And it does kind of magnify, Hey, these are some cracks in the foundation that need to be worked on. Or like, like I said, I was surprised to be like, man, I really thought, , I was a lot farther along in Mike Roth than what I actually have. But it's been very, very eye-opening and very healing and helpful in that way.
Yeah.
, and I think one thing for us, and I know it's true for me, the dismantling of ideals, the dismantling of this picture perfect kind of relationship with God has also allowed me to dismantle kind of this picture perfect expectation around my relationships to people. Yes. And I, I've find that there's been a huge reward in, having a mirror Yeah.
And, and really pointing to those areas of growth. Yeah. Without it deteriorating, , my self worth I guess I'm saying. The world doesn't have to be rose colored for it to be really special and beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful. And, and I think in fact, having those expectations is what robs you of happiness.
Because when you see a person be imperfect and you love them through that, and when you yourself fall short of who you want to be in the context of relationship and you feel loved through that, there's,
, a very matured sense of what those rose colored glasses actually look like. It's different than having the world be perfect and, and light. I can say that I have learned to feel loved in the moments that I've made mistakes and been forgiven and been like, oh, this person really does.
Love me. And also this pressure, I think the added pressure of being like a gay couple, , of, , the whole minority exceptionalism where, , you're afraid to be, , imperfect because , this is the example. And I think that's even some of the reason why it took me so long, even just to announce our togetherness because I wanted to make sure this relationship is solid.
Right. , because if this relationship were to fall apart, there's this, , sense in the back of my mind of like, , I would be pointed, and I'm sure this is my anxiety and my like, own kind of worst fears manifesting, but the anxiety is that, oh, I would be pointed to as the example of , see, , , , any relationship outside of God's will, is not sustainable?
Here's the example. Yeah. Of, of a failure and. , I didn't wanna be part of that narrative. And so I think there is this idea of having to present perfect, having to look perfect, having to have all of my ducks in order before I can just be, and I am glad to see some of that washing away. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And, and, and part of our commitment, I guess to be candid with the world and in normalizing the experience of relationship, even with the added pressures of being a queer couple, is, to offer that,
It's providing the insight of what our relationship goes through, but also just normalizing like every relationship is hard. Yeah. And, and I think I didn't have enough, , examples of that in my community growing up because, I mean, I guess people handled that very privately. and I don't think people were really showing Yeah.
The signs of what normal relationships go through. So I felt really threatened by the presence of like, conflict in our relationship. And, and then I was, , how could two people who are already wrestling with a mountain of homophobia and then a theological burden to come to terms with their identity and their relationship with God, and then the distance, , piece of it and, and then there's the whole getting to know a whole new human being.
Yeah. And, , so there was a lot going on that I wouldn't call it easy and breezy Yeah. Type of a relationship, but, , obviously, , one that I want to spend the rest of my life continuing to explore, so, so I can hold that complexity. Yeah. That it's not easy that it, it's really painful at times even.
, and, and not , you sure you wanna get married ? Yeah. And I was just gonna clarify. Yeah. And not only because of, , like normal couple friction. Yeah. But because of all these outside pressures and all the cost that it comes with the cost, right? Yeah. Of acceptance and like communal support and all that, like, that's lacking in some spaces.
Sure. , but it being so special and , you're in such alignment with who I want to spend the rest of my life with that I don't wanna give that up. Right? . So it's been nuanced, to say the least. And to just normalize that, I don't know that we have enough people in our spheres talking about that nuance.
And you know, what's, interesting about this dynamic as well is , I think oftentimes not making assumptions right now. So if this doesn't fit your experience that's okay. I think in, often in hetero relationships or even sometimes in queer relationships where there's more of a, , a binary of like, one is the mask, one is the femme, , sometimes they'll take on those kind of patriarchal roles of like, where in hetero relationships there is this sense of husband is the head of the household, wife submits, the woman looks to the man to lead, and a lot of conflicts will kind of defer to the male partner, right?
And be like, okay, , or, , he just has to apologize or he just has to apologize. Right? , like, like, like he takes on this, , element of chivalry and, , allowing her to maybe like, complain, but maybe not engage with that complaint in a meaningful way because, , making space is a part of being secure in your masculinity.
So he's just letting her kind of say what she wants. So like the, there are those dynamics where I would say there is a power imbalance, and in that power imbalance you're gonna see a lot less friction because one might, and even you can find this in, in just like, , whatever type of relationship where there might be a dominant and submissive partner or, or, or just, yeah.
Where the roles are more complimentary. Complimentary rather than, , , equalitarian equal. Yeah. Yeah. And I think for us, , the lines of equality always are very close. , like we're, we are trying to make sure that, , I, I don't think there's a, a person here that's like, wants to take on any of those roles, right?
To be a submissive or dominant person. And I think in those powered dynamics, there's a lot of repression of real feelings that over time, if they're not resolved, I. . I, I think there's no way you can bite your tongue all the time and not have it hurt you in some way, or hurt the relationship or hurt the closeness.
So in that relationship, you might not be close. So you rely on your other relationships to, to kind of talk about your partner and be like, , my husband's a terrible person and I can't never tell him these things because he's so close my, so you rely on these other relationships to kind of let off that steam, even if face-to-face you are kind of playing the submissive role.
And because there's not that dynamic there, I think there is more commitment to resolving issues, even small issues. Mm-hmm. . And so I think in that sense, there is more conflict. Sometimes it comes up, , here , or, or within those types of egalitarian roles. Yeah. , , I'm taking a class on family systems and the importance of, , hierarchy in a parental, ,
child, parent, child relationship. Yeah. And then the importance of equality within those subgroups. Child and child and parent to parent. Hmm. , so I think , our society as a whole isn't really versed in. more egalitarian types of relationships because we don't have enough representation , in the media, like in television, ?
Yeah. It's not the romcom of the year when you see two people of the same gender, right? Mm-hmm. . , so I think, I think that's a part of it. Just learning the language. Yeah. Discovering that. And even if you're not seeing it on television, like how often are you, I, I wasn't really exposed to it in my community.
I didn't really have a frame of reference for it. So it was finding that out within the context of this relationship. Yeah. So like anything where it's new, it's really exciting. Yeah. A and, and there's a lot of that excitement that carries you through the difficult times. , and then when it's hard, it's, it's like a jigsaw puzzle.
You have to figure out, , if this is a one time thing that we're gonna solve it this way, or is this creating a precedent for how we'll solve all of our future problems and remaining because we don't have these fixed roles to fall back on, it's like remaining malleable almost. Mm-hmm. and, and meeting every situation with a beginner's mind and a beginner's heart, and wanting it to feel footing to who we are and what our individual needs are.
Yeah. , but also discovering that along the way because, There aren't these roles to fall back on and not realizing, oh, you were expecting me to do that. I was kind of expecting you to do that. Or vice. Right. Yeah. You're, it's all unfolding And there's a beauty to that, right? Like, for example, one of my favorite things is that because, , our relationship isn't within the norm.
Yep. I felt like I could break other types of norms. , one thing I wanted for my whole life is to have a Sapphire engagement ring. Hmm. And this is sponsored by Cages Jewelers was . It's definitely not K jewel.
James Allens . , so one thing that I wanted was the sapphire ring. And I remember always telling myself, , , but I can't do that because everybody will think that my ring is cheap or something. Mm-hmm. , it's not the expensive diamond. I had no idea how expensive sapphires can be, quality s . So I wouldn't have thought that if I knew how much they actually cost, but, , because I didn't, I wasn't fitting the mold already with this kind of relationship. It opened me up to really do something I loved. Yeah. That kind of broke the norm and it's been such a pleasant surprise. All of my colleagues love my ring and I, I, they talk about how unique it is and how they want a colorful stone and, and why aren't more engagement rings colorful and so, I don't know, I think that removing expectations or not having these frames of references, Is hard. And it's also really rewarding cuz it allows for a lot more creativity and flex flexibility. Yeah. In the way that we approach chores, life's life, like our own dynamic feels very organic and very personality based as well.
So it's been, a very interesting journey and I'm sure we'll talk more of the details and maybe we can talk a little bit about, I mean, on my Instagram I talk a little bit about our love story, but we haven't heard your version of events Ah, And maybe we can talk a little bit about that and the engagement. I think I fell in love with you pretty instantly. So, , it feels like you took a while to catch up, , from may end because I just, I remember we were taking this class and I.
I really appreciated your participation the way that you thought. I thought you were really bold and, , opinionated,
I dunno if that's a good thing, but . Yes. Well, , I, I find that I enjoy discussion, right? You stood out to me, , because of your participation and then we got paired up in this class and we had.
To collaborate on a project, and then we went out for coffee. And it wasn't just like the intellectual appeal. I got to hear a little bit of your story and I was just , fascinated by, , the way that you crawled out of like, adversity in your life and the challenges that you had been met with.
And to see somebody as poised and as open and as, , friendly. I, I, I just thought like, how can you retain that kind of sunshine, , amidst of what you've been through. And so I think the attraction was there kind of instantly. Mm-hmm. though, you would argue, I think, oh, no. Well, I think we had a class together for a whole semester and I sat like one seat away from you and you were, I, you don't even remember that class with me, , which just shows how memorable I am
, and that was, but I think the same in the sense of like when I began talking to you, , For me, I think there was an immediate sense of connection because I think you have this ability to show up and be present in space and to hold space in a way that, , and, and to hold authenticity and vulnerability and to remain in that kind of, , relationship, , in ways that I wasn't really encountering.
, I think there is a lot of protection, especially when you're in seminary. , a desire to hide the ugly parts of yourself because you're not sure if it'll be accepted and there's an expectation that these are future pastors and you need to be Jesus Christ to your congregation. And so there is.
A high investment in perfectionism. And so what you end up having is, , a lot of people who fall flat in their relationships, , or they become a caricature and it's hard to really make that connect. And with you, I never saw that that was present. There was always just like, I feel like I was dealing with an authentic human being that I could actually have connection with.
And that was very, , grounding and it very much drew me to you. Yeah. And, and so then ensues what I like to call my letters phase , because after I discovered how attracted I was to you, I just. , I was torn. I felt like I couldn't engage with that attraction. I felt like I was teetering some sort of line around what was appropriate or not appropriate to do.
And in my mind, that looked like, well, it's appropriate to have class. It's appropriate, , to like, work on this project together, work on this project together to grab coffee every once in a while and chit chat. And I felt like my attraction to you would leak. Like, like, I don't know how good I was at holding it back, but as long as I didn't do anything about it, that that was within the bounds.
Yeah. Right. That, , maybe I, yeah, that I as, as long as I didn't act upon it, that that was within the bounds, but then I. , I started to feel a tremendous amount of guilt that I was engaging you with this kind of, I don't know if it was an ul Alteri ulterior motive, because I don't think that I was intending for anything to happen.
Mm-hmm. . But knowing that there was something big in the background of our interactions made it so that I felt really uncomfortable. Oh. , and so uncomfortable around, , just being a fraud. Like I'm showing up as a friend, but I secretly really enjoy you in ways that are probably more interesting than what I would offer to a friend.
And I felt like reprimanding myself all the time. So I took a backseat and I started to write out my feelings as a way of just like, this will be my escape. This will be how I put it down on paper, and really control. How I show up. And mind you, I had been single for a long time, like many years prior to this, and one of the reasons I was single was because I wanted to work on myself.
I had broken up this relationship and I wanted to make sure that I was following God and that God was at the forefront of all of my decision. What drew me to seminary was that I had all these unresolved questions around my identity that I wanted to find answers for myself. Yeah, , like I wanted to learn the original Greek, the original.
I wanted to to know Hebrew and to look at the text and be able to arrive at. Answers that felt fulfilling because what I encountered in my journey was people who grew angry before I had fully resolved the questions in my mind around my identity. Yeah. , I, I, I can say that I really resonate with this part of your journey because I think, , some people go to, , seminary with just the clear path of like, I'm here because I know I want a pastor.
, I, I see my youth pastor, I see my pastor, and like, that's who I wanna become. And for me it was kind of resolving these life questions, right? I feel, I felt so stunted by my own guilt in so many different areas of my life, , that for me there was also , What I would call missional guilt.
, like the occupation that I should have should be quote, saving souls. Yes. . I relate to that . And so anything that wasn't directly, so like my even passions as a writer or even as a fiction writer felt so superfluous. , just not even on target with what I quote should be doing. I didn't have an interest in medicine.
I didn't want to become a doctor. I didn't wanna become a nurse. I didn't have like, I think an adventism we say, well , if you're not a missionary, like you can be these other things , , that are medical related to health and saving people in a physical sense. And I just had no interest in that.
And so I was really. Stuck and stifled and like bound by all of these rules of who I should be and and including my sexuality. Right? So that was, that was one bound. And all of these ways that I didn't find all of these ways that I wasn't allowed to discover who I really was because it seemed like there was only one path.
And that path was be a single celibate woman who's not a pastor, cuz you're not supposed to go ordained, but you can just minister in the humility of your own heart and be of service to God in the most minute, unassuming ways possible. And that seemed plausible to me. Right. So I went to seminary also with kind of this agenda of like trying to figure out what's permissible in my life so that I could actually start living my life.
And this is not for me to mention, so feel free to cut this out. Okay. But I thought, , one of those big questions for you that I picked up on in class was this, like the ability of a divorced woman to reengage in a relationship also. Yeah. Because I think as a divorcee myself, I initially got divorced with the idea of like, I guess I'm just gonna have to be single forever.
Like I can escape, but I could never find love again. And I think that was somewhere in the back of my head of like, am I, am I disappointing God? Am I going to be left out of heaven at this point if I decide to remarry or or reengage in relationship? And so all these avenues were shut down. Even the sense of like, , , this as if, if I, if I bring somebody into a relationship with me, will I also be culpable for them being in quote in sin?
Right? There was all these big questions, , that I didn't have answers to that I was trying to press reset on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe it was like also something energetically where
there was a, like-mindedness, but there was also a likeness, , in terms of heart. , , the,
we had similar struggles in life. We were able to resonate on different wavelengths. Exactly. I think. Yeah. And, that was a very powerful draw. , when you can go deep with somebody. That's, that's usually an interesting kind of dynamic and also when you can be light. So having that balance, and I, I remember thinking my connection to you felt so rare.
Yeah. Like, I remember you cussed and I was like, oh, yay.
Are we being ourselves today? good. I remember that. It was a big deal. Oh, you were such a bad girl, , which now it's like, not even . You're so good. The thing is, the thing is, I gave myself permission to be more. imperfect than, than what you were giving yourself permission to be in that moment. And I think that's why I came across as like a batty.
Yeah. But in reality, I'm such a goodie. Two shoes. You are
I was like, she's so bad. wearing her jewelry. Yes. and her fashionable clothes. Oh man, that's so funny. Light years ago. And, and so, so the analogy that it always would pop into me, it was like, , I was walking around along the beach and I stumbled upon a diamond and I thought, , how rare to find a diamond in the sand.
But it was just glistening and it was big. And I grab it and then somebody would walk up to me and said, throw it back in the water. And then maybe you'll come across another diamond. And in my mind I'm going, how rare this this is, this will never happen again. I will only find a diamond in the sand once, you know what, I did find a diamond in the sand once.
No way. I did. I was , I was like in the fourth grade, Uhhuh . And I found a diamond ring in the dirt and I'm sure some poor teacher. Lost it and I , I kept it. . . I really thought I had found like this treasure. Yes. . I don't even know what ended up having to this. Yes, but I remember, oh so terrible.
But like I brought it home to be like, look, I got this, I found this. And one of my brothers started. Bend it. Oh. Because they were like, if it's real, it won't bend. . Like, no, it's because it's real. It's malleable. And so they just jacked it up. The first moment, , I got home, I couldn't even enjoy it. Wow. For a whole day.
Oh, that's sad. I, I mean, what was I gonna do with a diamond ring that didn't fit me well, at least, . Right. You find a diamond, you keep it. You don't throw it in the water. Go now. Might find another one. Unless, unless it's somebody's ring, then please give it to the episode. Give it back. Give it back.
But if it was like a loose diamond, I would've kept it. Okay. Anecdotal moment, but sorry, , we've run into the end of this analogy. . Okay. Sorry. Going back to reality. , so anyways, that's what it felt like when I met you, that I had found something so incredibly rare that I would only come across at once in my lifetime, and that I was being told that I needed to throw it back in the water.
Now, mind you, There are diamonds everywhere. And I'm not a fate kind of person that there's only one person for you. There's only one diamond in the world, ? But I, I can appreciate how special and unique you were to me and how special and the circumstances, , around you and that forms you to be the person that you are.
Were as well. Mm-hmm. . So there were, like I mentioned, many waves in which we just kind of rode. Yeah. , so many parts of your story resonated with so many parts of my story, and Europe upbringing was very different than mine. But I, I could connect to some of the struggles in my upbringing. And then the fact that you were Seventh Day Adventist and here in the seminary and could understand more of those theological burdens were also a connecting point.
Yeah. , ironically, So I, I think that moment happened at that coffee shop and there were many more coffee moments to follow. Being the batty that I was drinking coffee. I know , I was found the only other rebel Yes. Who would go and drink coffee with me. . Yeah. , so for those of you who are not familiar with the s d church, , it's really frowned upon to drink caffeine.
Yeah. I just putting that out there and wear, wear jewelry and Yeah. All the things that you did and to curse . . Exactly. So, yeah, no, and it was something that like, as for me, I think something that we, and eventually, , argued about, and maybe I'll let you continue some of the, the story of you telling your own narrative, but , was the fact that I felt frustrated with the fact that you seemed so sure about.
wanting to pursue this relationship and wanting to try it out. And I was really at the beginning of my theological unraveling. And I think we both had two different approaches about how we were gonna tackle, , should we or shouldn't we move forward in this relationship? And maybe you could ta talk a little bit about like, the ways that you were tackling it cuz it was different than the ways that I was tackling it and because I wanted you to do it my way.
I think bible study is every night . Like, we need to like unpack this. Let's go read . Uh,, that, that there was some friction there. Maybe we can talk about how you came to such this like surety and, and how you got over these obstacles of you. saying, oh, homosexuality is wrong. Yeah. Well, just going back to the letters phase.
Mm-hmm. , those, those outpourings of what I thought were inappropriate feelings soon became prayers if I could channel my love, it would be in the format of prayers. And I would wish upon you, , the love that I wanted to give you and couldn't, and I would wish upon myself the same that, that God would heal me, that God would stop me from.
Really mixing up this draw with attraction and cure me so that I could really just have a friendship without all the noise in the background.
Over time, I just, I be, I felt too guilty about it. And so we had to stop talking and I, , it was that moment that you talked about where I said, I can't just be your friend
Yeah. For those who I might n know about it mm-hmm. one day after class after coffee. Yeah. , you called me and you said, I can't, can't be your friend anymore.
Was just too unbearable. It was too complicated
and I needed to simplify our dynamic. And I needed, , to not feel like a. Hypocrite or like a fraud in some ways that I was befriending you but also had all these other feelings.
So I told you I can't be your friend , the right thing here is to walk away. And I think there was attraction happening mutually, but it was such an, I wouldn't know it. , . I had, I hid it well, but there were so many other things in my life that I had bound that I hadn't given myself permission to, to explore that.
It was such a pattern for me just to stay in that bound nature. And so, even though like your statement, your bold move gave me permission to begin to unlock those parts of me. And to re-ask myself the questions of, okay, am I bound for a reason? And so I began approaching it very theologically, very much like reading the books, reading Un Clobber, , reading, , Lin Toad queer Theology, like going through the motions of even like my own Bible studies, trying to wrap my head around of like finding the permission for myself in the eyes of God.
And you took a different approach, and maybe you can talk a little bit about your own, , approach to that. Yeah, I think my initial approach was just that di disengaging and walking away from the relationship. It was, it was too much for me to take on. But then I, I, I suffered a significant loss in my family and I started the residency program.
and I think at least the way that my educator approaches, , spiritual care and this work that we do, it's, it's not just skill-based. It's really a psychosocial dynamic approach that allowed me kind of the flexibility in the space to really name and work through a lot of the shame I was experiencing as a result of my identity.
And it was, it was a new format for me because in the past, , all of my processing was strictly under this theological umbrella. Hmm. I hadn't learned to approach my life struggles through a more scientific, psychological approach. And that gave me new language and understanding knowledge. Around my behavior.
It kind of helped me understand how I was transferring a lot of my upbringing up even onto my version of God. I started to really parse out what about my faith allowed me to picture God in certain ways and what about my family of origin allowed me to picture God in certain ways. And , that was just very new to me.
Yeah. And, and it was very frustrating for me because I think there was a part of, , you who said, I don't need to like engage with this right now, like the, the theology part and that you are really validating your own experience like this exists, like, and it's existed for a long time and I'm, and I'm coming to almost the self-knowledge, , that.
I hadn't even given myself permission to validate or explore yet. Yeah. And so I had this kind of, , verbal contract with God where there was a conversation I had with God around this time where I said, , I tried doing it your way for 20 something plus years. , and
I've always been frustrated and I haven't been able to fix anything. Like I've given you this amount of time to teach me and to change me and transformed me.
And I just kind of knew, , when you, when you have enough safety in your relationship with God, that. , you can ask for something. I basically said, I've given you all these years of my life to change me, to teach me, to give me these answers, and I still don't have much to show for it.
Mm-hmm. Why am I struggling with this draw that I have towards Kendra? So I said, I've given you these years and I'm still in the same place I need you to give me. And I don't know if I said six months, but it, that's like the timeframe I had in my mind.
So whether I said it or not, that's six months to fix me or I'm out No, no, no. I said I've earned a period where I get to just figure this out without the terror of judgment and the loss of my life Weighing in the balance. Yeah. Like I will not be lost for this period. I'm just trying to figure this out.
And what I discovered is that during this time when I allowed my experience to teach me something, and when I say that, I mean I felt the presence of God in moments where usually because of my shame, I would never have expected to feel the presence of God.
And so that started to really teach me that it was my own shame. And so I realized, wow, I, I really was the one to push God away whenever I was feeling dirty .
, it wasn't that God had removed his peace and his presence from me. So when I was able to say, wow, I'm in this period where I'm supposedly, , kind of veering off the path. Yeah. And I'm finding these beautiful moments in my spiritual work
and I, I would feel even confirmation as I was exploring my theology. And so these things were unlocking only because I was able to experience God through a different approach. And you had taken this break to say, I'm giving myself permission to not be under your judgment right now.
And I remember I relate to that so much. I remember, , flying into Boston, , , reading, , Glennon Doyle's, , untamed at the time, feeling this is so revolutionary and like looking her, looking at her own exploration of like her lesbian love interest. And I remember just praying like, I know I'm, I'm going.
On this plane and this, this might be sin, right? Like, feeling so terrified that, that like, please don't let this plane go down as punishment. I think I started praying this not knowing necessarily that you were praying the same thing, but like having to say, you have to give me space to figure this out.
You can't just cut me down because you don't think I'm doing the right thing right now. God, you have to give me space to figure this out on my own and not be punitive. And even just having that conversation is kind of eye-opening as far as. my own perception of God to think that, do I really think that they are ready and willing to punish me at any, like as soon as soon as I , am off the path, , to strike me down.
And so that's something that , , giving myself that, that period and that break to say, you've gotta get off my, my neck right now. Yeah. And to come to the conclusion that maybe it was my own anxiety, my own fear, my own, , or, or, or a communal perception of who God is rather than who God actually is.
, that has been driving a lot of my fear so,
so I think I really wanted to check my balances while also honoring my need to. Explore who I was. To leave the nest a little bit. To leave the nest a little bit. Yes, exactly. So it wasn't a matter of just like disregarding God, it's can I find God outside of this format and outside of this very specific theology, ?
Yeah. The whole world seems to connect with God in one way over another. And I've been really critical of relativism and I've been really critical of this kind of more secular approach. But I wanna see, , yeah, if I don't have this language, is there other language that connects me to the God that I already know I'm familiar with?
And when I discovered that to be true, I kind of saw that I wasn't this vulnerable child, , or sheep out for the taking. I felt that there was a lot of empowerment there and that my relationship with God really grew. away from this need protection kind of space to a genuine sense of community and co-creative process around my life and my choices.
Yeah, I love that. And I think, , , I wish there was more of an official launch, , other than kind of like the kind of the sad ways that these launches af often take place, which is ostracization or being kicked out of a community that force you to launch into this autonomy to leave the nest and say, can I find God and connect on my own terms in a way that that is not restricting the parts of myself that make me me.
And so I think we're gonna continue this conversation cause I think it's so hopefully informative. You let us know. , , , just to have the transparency of like, there's so much that goes on, , in wanting and, , being in relationship, , with another woman and being a gay couple, , in kind of Adventist spaces.
, I think that having this kind of transparency hopefully will help others on their own journey. And so, , we are here and queer
and we're gonna stay. Yes. So we'll see you guys, , in a couple weeks.